I’m not sure how I got involved in the great battle of Nuffnang versus Advertlets, but I blame it on my habit of rooting for the underdog. Then again, I feel my personal opinions on Advertlets, and comments on Endoh’s and Estee’s blog does have its merits, no? For the record, I’m not associated with Nuffnang or Advertlets, have never met the owners, don’t hate their pets - heck, I’m not even a publisher for either one. Still, there were certain things that I didn’t quite agree on even as a bystander/observer and here they are (in no particular order): 1) Bloggers Complaining About NN’s $1 Fee 2) I Think NN Is Just Trying To Make More Money 3) I Don’t Care, NN Should Absorb The Fee 4) NN Pays Peanuts 5) Nuffnang Pays More Attention To The Big Bloggers 6) Enuffnang 7) Estee Has Poor PR Skills 8) Advertlets’ Self-Promotion I know the business-savvy bunch would like to shoot me blind-folded and on my knees, but that’s just the way I feel. I’m totally ethical in my business and even recommend my competitors for the job sometimes (and vice versa) - so shoot me! Now just because others are doing it doesn’t mean its right and in the words of Rodney King, “can’t we all just get along?” Like I’ve mentioned before, instead of wasting resources fighting at this premature stage, both NN and Advertlets should go out there and educate the advertisers, get them online and make money for the bloggers. I doubt the biggest issue now is with the admin fees, the process flows or the competition BUT with getting potential advertisers to spend money. So that’s my personal opinion and I’m sure you’ll have yours because we bloggers are expected to be opinionated after all. It’s my last stand on NN and I swear by my beloved Dell XPS laptop that I shall never write about them again unless really necessary. Anyway TGIF, and I look forward to meeting Nicholas, Cheng Leng, Funan Center and Sim Lim Square on Monday. And to all, have a very pleasant and well-deserved weekend! ;)
I have to admit that NN’s at fault for not making an announcement but chose to “surprise” their publishers instead. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t NN lower the minimum withdrawal limit to $50 instead of $100 to please the bloggers? Doesn’t that logically mean more frequent withdrawals and hence, more admin costs?
Think for a moment. It is a measly $1 so why did NN bother charging it? Maybe it’s really true that lowering the withdrawal limit did impact their costs. In addition, NN could have hidden the fee and took a bigger chunk out of your commissions quietly but they didn’t.
How can you not care when NN’s fortunes are directly tied to yours? If they go bankrupt, you lose your source of blog income or an alternative to Advertlets …depending on how you look at it. Didn’t NN “cared” for you when they were understanding enough to lower the withdrawal limit?
Since I’m not a publisher, I admit that I’m not familiar with their business model. But having been an Adsense publisher since 2005, I can tell you that 3 things will affect your earnings - the niche, the advertisers and the visitors. In the U.S., competitive niches like litigation pays up to US$80 per click, compared to US$1.50 for credit cards and US$0.01 for song lyrics. Considering Singapore’s market size and the fact that advertisers are only starting to get online, I wouldn’t bet my mother’s dentures that they are paying a lot, i.e. per CPM or per click. Thirdly, are you getting enough relevant and converting visitors? My Adsense CPM is usually around $2 - $3 per 1,000 ad impressions and it can go down to $0.25 eCPM for high traffic sites. Apart from overseas visitors that don’t count, yours may also be mostly “returning” visitors who are already “ad blind” and hence, considered low quality.
Err… if this is true, wouldn’t it be obvious? In case you’ve been living in Dreamland, Google gives New Year presents to high-earning publishers and HSBC provides free parking to their Premiere clients.
I’m sure we’ve all heard of the famous “why Nuffnang will fail” blog by now. I’m suspicious about this person’s interest because it looks like he/she (equal rights mah!) has put in a lot of time and effort into it. If you feel so strongly about Nuffnang, why the need to hide and be anonymous? I bet if Russell Peters was here he would tell you “be a man!”
So I didn’t know that she has a relationship with Ming and I also thought she was just a volunteer at TDM’s PopOut event. Still I think she is entitled to her own opinion, whether as an individual or as a Nuffnang publisher, and we shouldn’t assume that her opinion is biased. She wrote in her own capacity on a public space (Techcrunch) and using her own name so what has that got anything to do with TDM or Ming? Punishment by association? Would it have been acceptable if she had condemned NN instead? I’m not sure about you but I certainly wouldn’t want to be hanged too just because I’m brother to a rapist.
I guess you’ve seen Josh in the comments too but unlike some who think of it as “clever”, it simply didn’t work for me. Infact, it reminded me of a Ricky Hui movie where he promoted his duck shop by showing a cardboard ad behind the live TV reporter covering an accident - cheap, desperate and taking advantage of other people’s misery.
ya loh. thanks for the mature comments. :)
Comment by meow on November 9, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Final words on Nuffnang? Haha….. your title sound as if Nuffnang die liao. :P
Comment by DK on November 9, 2007 at 3:08 pm
well written and unbiased writing since u’re not even a publisher to both. it’s ur opinion and almost the same as mine toward this NN issue.
they have been good to me and heck i’m not even a high traffic site yet i got my 1st $50 frm them recently :)
Comment by Izarrudin on November 9, 2007 at 3:11 pm
DK: affected by your evil twin lor. Guess it should’ve been MY last words on Nuffnang. :)
Comment by Larry on November 9, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.
Comment by eStee on November 9, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Larry: But its good that everyone is submitting their closing statement for this whole issue.
Think everyone had said enough. It is up to Nuffnang to decide if they want to take up those advice. One thing for sure, if the issue not resolved in this round, it will hit them again the next time something cock up.
Comment by DK on November 9, 2007 at 4:41 pm
I luv the ” BE A MAN” part.. bingo on that
Comment by Freethinker on November 9, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Larry, your closure just show you trying to leverage on the nuffnang issue by providing no value information other than just trying to tell others you are neutral. So what is the conclusion here? I be very concern to use your service as you are seen as someone with a narrow perspectives on business.
Comment by Jonathan Tan on November 9, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Hi Larry,
Thank you for your post.
It is truly an enlightened one.
The focus from the day that Nuffnang had enough mass was to find advertisers for this mass. With every blogger that joins me, my responsibility grows further.
Nuffnang is now an authority in the singaporean and malaysian blogosphere. We owe it to them to be a viable and credible business in the short run, medium run and long run.
Costs need to be kept in check, processes need to be finetuned, and advertisers need to be found. This all takes time, and requires patience. In this case, it is true, that patience is a virtue.
Not everybody can get an ad, because there is a finite budget. We could accumulate “virtual” debt, and extend the campaigns of our advertisers, but that would mean the demise of nuffnang in the long run, when this “virtual” debt reaches maturity. Nuffnang for sure has a credit rating of AAA. We can pay out, because we get paid, and we have considered our costs.
My first and foremost consideration is not responding directly to the $1 issue, is the possible segregation of the blogosphere. This is counter to our aims of forging a community, and in addition will make my job harder to find advertisers, who would be afraid of their brand being tarnished. At the same time, I our blog post (before the 1st storm) and global email (after the first storm, before the second) that we sent out is sufficient closure for the majority of our bloggers.
Nuffnang singapore is stronger now than it was before. From the lessons I have learnt, from the support I have recieved, and from the bloggers who still continue to put their faith in me. Our ranks grow unabated everyday. And we have new advertisers in the month of november! A big one coming online the week after next! Plus goodies and prizes for our nuffnangers!
We are also going to be having a great charity initiative soon! Nuffnang will be contributing a paid campaign as a media partner to a great brand.
Nuffnang 2.0 is also due out sometime end of next week. Many improvements have been made, thoughtful improvements. The code has been improved and made more efficient, and there is a new feature to add value to our bloggers. Even after that is launched, there will still be further improvements. NN 2.0 is a work in progress, it will always be, until forever.
Larry, I would like to meet you sometime. Perhaps you could drop me an email? I would very much like your views on how I can continue to grow Nuffnang in a positive manner!
Take care.
Best regards,
Ming
Comment by ming on November 9, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Hey Larry, we look forward to catching up with you too. The teh tarik is long overdue.
Comment by Precious on November 9, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Jonathan: valuable information? I gave honest opinions based on my observation, shared my Adsense CPM rates, and my experience as a publisher and also Internet marketing consultant.
What is the conclusion? Don’t be so short-sighted, you scratch my back I scratch yours, stand too near the trees and you’ll miss the forest…
Narrow perspectives? So advising bloggers to re-evaluate their opinions is being narrow while those who write about nothing but bashing NN is being open-minded? Ok.
Comment by Larry on November 9, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Ming, you have no intention to address the current issue and only choose to reply those that supports you but not those crticise you.
Well done. What a lousy way to treat your bloggers that been doing free advertisements for you.
Comment by Anju on November 9, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Anju, I think it has been a humbling experience for Ming and I applaud him for having the courage to speak up now. Especially now because it takes even more courage when things have blown to such proportion.
Having said that, I think fear of “segregation of the blogosphere” is still a weak excuse. It has backfired on you earlier, therefore to continue using this to explain your business decision not to respond when you should have will not turn things around.
Comment by Precious on November 9, 2007 at 9:25 pm
NN could had hidden the fee and take a bigger chunk of the commission. GRanted. They must be kicking their ass for not doing so. To tell me they din do it because they had integrity is nothing more than a convenient arguement to put the first feather on their featherless cap.
I am a man with or without disclosing my real identity. And if you read my name, and if you refuse to believe that is my name, i will not do something to the point of convincing you into believing for nothing more than your personal unorthodox satisfaction.
You havent defended with senses with your essay, Nuffnang hasnt become the opposite of what the community think of overnight. They are responsible for what they did and its time for them to come out and tell the blatant truth and be honest about it.
Comment by Harry on November 9, 2007 at 11:44 pm
I would have nominated Stephen Sing of Odex for Worst businessman 2007 but Ming, you beat them hands down.
Even Sing himself had the courage to address all the criticisms on their corporate website with a one webpage document, no matter how much it was rejected by anime lovers, and then stood by it. Even Advertlets, if not Josh himself, had only made a statement on the corporate website about their stand on the $1 issue and then say no more. Even Apple make public statements on their site when iPhone early adopters were pissed with the sudden cut in prices. Have you not learn anything from these examples? I am wondering if time you spent responding to these blogs wouldn’t have allowed you to put up an official statement regarding this matter on the NN corporate site by now!
Engaging only selected bloggers and playing the sympathy card will not help you at all. It only reinforces the perception that there is a lack of sincerity and transparency. Advertlets currently has no better friend than your self, since you have done quite enough to ruin NN than Advertlets ever could with just their one and only ‘We are not charging $1′ public statement.
Comment by Aldragon on November 10, 2007 at 1:40 am
Well said Aldragon! Feel that there’s seriously something that NN has to do officially. Instead of going around blogs supporting them and replying to the posts. And congrats to NN for closing a BIG deal in November. hope this BIG deal will run ads on all the 5000+ blogs under NN and not just the high ranking ones. And time will tell whether to not NN will survive.
It’s a tough world out there. Being young and stubborn and rude and not-thinking-before-acting type of businessman is not going to be of any help.
Good luck to the NN team…
Comment by Blogger on November 10, 2007 at 2:10 am
Aldragon: I’m as surprised as you are with Ming’s silence on the corporate site. It could be like he mentioned, that the majority of bloggers are satisfied with the email NN sent out so there’s no need for it. Actually, he maybe right because if you consider the 5,000 bloggers that NN has, it’s just a really small number (usually the same people) that’s still complaining.
Blogger: it’d be naive to think that everyone has an equal chance. If you’d use any major ad networks before, the selection is done by the advertisers and the big fishes usually get an advantage. Imagine that you joined Adbrite.com, would you complain if Friendster got the ads and your 20 visitors/day blog didn’t?!
Comment by Larry on November 10, 2007 at 8:00 am
Harry: am curious to know what is your interest in NN - are you a publisher, ex-employee, etc.? I’m suprised that my blog post wasn’t posted on yours but a later one by ignorantsoup did. If you’re only putting up NEGATIVE articles then you are BIASED and your integrity deserves questioning.
Comment by Larry on November 10, 2007 at 8:07 am
This is comic relief, larry.
First of all, it is as if you are not biased when you incessantly called Advertlets dishonest, etc etc. It is evident you are clearly biased when people don’t do business your way. Is it also not a bias when you appeared to take the every word of Ming for it, but the things that other people say are always disregarded? Next, what makes you so sure it’s just a small group out of the 5000 bloggers in NN that is making noise? Frankly, do you visit all 5000 sites daily and keep a track on everyone? You are sure that the people who remained silent are happy and not just following discussions to allow them to make a decision on whether to quit NN? Or that they are not exchanging emails in private to discuss this? Finally, it isn’t just the matter of $1 is to be addressed. There is also the matter on how ads are given to bloggers if you haven’t notice. What you see in blogs is only the surface and you are definitely unaware of the undercurrent that goes beneath.
Comment by Aldragon on November 10, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Aldragon: I judged Advertlets based on what THEY did whereas in Harry’s case, HE chose to put up only negative posts - so who is biased? Besides, unlike your relentless convincing since my earlier post, I don’t force my opinions on others:
“So that’s my personal opinion and I’m sure you’ll have yours…”
Likewise, how sure are you that they are unhappy?
The distribution of the ads is likely to be non-uniform and there’s nothing abnormal about that - it’s the same at Google, Yahoo, Adbrite, etc. but do you question them? I’ve mentioned somewhere before that if Pareto’s law applies, then it means 20% of the blogs are getting 80% of the traffic. Now if I was an advertiser with limited ad spend, would I choose that 20% bloggers or stretch my dollar over the entire 100%?
As with everything else in life, you can
1) complain about what you DON’T have and be constantly unhappy; or
2) be thankful about what you DO have and be constantly satisfied
I think you have made your point and before you go overboard, please be reminded that I have nothing to do with Nuffnang or Advertlets. These are just my personal opinions and on my personal blog. If you’re an unhappy NN publisher, do write to Ming by all means - I’m sure he’ll be happy to entertain you. Conversely, if you’d still like to convince the masses to go on strike or to borrow the phrase DK used, “burn his house, beat his mother”, then please use your own blog. ;)
Comment by Larry on November 10, 2007 at 12:40 pm
“… in Harry’s case, HE chose to put up only negative posts - so who is biased?”
What has Harry got to do with that now? Are you not biased based on how you judged Advertlets actions using your own moral values and business ethics? Did you not already do that before Harry has made his comment in a separate blog post I commented on?
—
“Likewise, how sure are you that they are unhappy?”
Unless one is blind one can see several blogs where bloggers express their unhappiness. You alleged that this is usually the same people which I disagree. Thus, the onus was never on me to prove anything to support your statement, but on you to provide evidence to support it. I suppose you have a list of blogs to support your allegation?
—
“The distribution of the ads is likely to be non-uniform and there’s nothing abnormal about that - it’s the same at Google, Yahoo, Adbrite, etc. but do you question them?”
No, simply because I have not seen any instance when Adsense (as an example) did not display ads. If there was any non-uniform distribution, it is in the types of ads displayed. If you have a problem with that, you are free to take it up with Google.
—
“…unlike your relentless convincing since my earlier post, I don’t force my opinions on others:
‘So that’s my personal opinion and I’m sure you’ll have yours…” ”
Since you are free to voice yours, they are free to voice theirs about them. If you don’t like counter-opinions to be voiced, then perhaps you should not make your own opinion available to others in the first place. Otherwise, close your comment section.
—
If you’re an unhappy NN publisher, do write to Ming by all means.
NN, not Ming, should be engaging bloggers as a corporate entity. That is done for the sake of transparency, so that unscrupulous elements cannot then further alleged that there is some under-the-table settlement.
—
“… if you’d still like to convince the masses to go on strike … then please use your own blog. ;) ”
That wasn’t what I intended anyway. And I can’t provide on my own blog the comic relief you are providing. LOL
Comment by Aldragon on November 10, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Aldragon: I drew the comparison with Harry because that was what you implied in your comment:
“First of all, it is as if you are not biased…”
The few blogs that complain about NN are proof that people are unhappy but the silence from a bigger majority doesn’t mean anything. Hmmm… everything seems to work towards your end doesn’t it?
The person who’s most biased here is your goodself because regardless of however people try to reason with you, you’ll still see white as black.
Glad, I can humor you. I must be so good that you keep coming back, even on a Saturday.
Comment by Larry on November 10, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Larry > I am as curious as you as to why you are against me trying to preach something which i think has some truth. You can call me biased and i also can you biased. That is of no consequence to the crux of our the problem. The reason why i did not include your post in my blog is simple. Because i do not agree with your assessment. I started the blog from a blank page and i collected informations to support my claim. All these i collected are rubbish, they dont just come out from no where suddenly. They are widely available all over the internet. What i do is just to consolidate them, give readers a clearer mind about the picture. And on top of them i gave my analysis of the situation. Anyone are free to comment, debunk, debate, discuss, argue or whatever you wanna do on the blog. It is a fair game.
So what if i am a publisher. So what if i am an ex employee of Nuffnang. So what if i am Josh Lim. So what if i am Paddy Tan. That is of absolutely no importance at all. All you need to care is whether my informations are accurate. If you think it isnt, welcome lets discuss which bit you think is not. I am not biased because i want to be biased. I am perceived to be biased because they have something for me to say about them and i want people to know what i feel. They may be negative but they are the truth. They are the truth and existed on every face on the earth. What i do is simply bringing out into the open. Its a fair game. If you think my character is suspicious, you have the right to start a blog and bring my character into public.
You are biased and i am biased so thats it. I never said from the start i am not. If i have to be biased in order to bring to public some accurate information, then i will.
I would not go to the point of being a hypocrite to inorder to paint a better picture, that in my opinion is downright dishonest.
The game is fair, you are free to start a blog “why-nuffnang-will-pass” or you even started this thread. Lets put it out, let the world decide for themself, what they believe.
Comment by Harry on November 10, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
Good judgement
Comment by Ken on November 12, 2007 at 4:08 am